The day that I withdrew from "Nursing" school...

[Nicole Maendel]

I want to share with all of you an event that drew me into
intactivism...
Back in 1996, I began an OB/GYN hospital clinical as a student nurse.
One day, I was enlisted to attend a 'routine circumcision.' I did not
realize how much that event would shatter the very foundation of a
career choice made in ignorance. I appeared in the doorway of the circ
room and saw the little newborn boy to whom I was 'assigned' for the
day. 20 years old and not having kids of my own, I did not anticipate
the lurching sensation that gripped my heart. Laying strapped down to a
table, so small and new....pure and innocent...trusting...all
alone...no defenses..., I walked toward the baby and wanted to grab him
off the table and shelter him..to tell him that nobody would hurt him..

In walked the doctor...loud..obnoxious..joking with his assistant...as
if he was about to perform a 10 minute oil change..not once did he talk
to this little baby. Rather, he reached for his cold metal
instruments..and then reached out for his object of mutilation...this
sweet newborn's perfect unharmed penis. As I recall the screams of pain
and terror.. his small lungs barely able to keep up with the cries..I
turned in horror as I saw the doctor forcefully pull his foreskin
around a metal object. Then came the knife..cut...cut..cut..
I stood next to the baby and said..you're almost done sweety..almost
done...
There..done. Then came the words..as that son-of-a-bitch dangled the
foreskin in midair.."anybody care to go fishing?"
My tongue lodged in my throat..I felt like I was about to vomit. I
restrained myself..and my duty was to then take the infant back to the
nursery for 'observation.' Here is where I realized I couldn't do it. I
could not be a part of such a cold, sterile, out-of-touch medical
model...Rather than observing, I cradled the infant...I held him and
whispered comforting words as if he were my own...I'll never forget
those new little eyes watch me as if in a haze...he knew I cared about
him...he knew he was safe in my arms..he knew that I was going to take
him to his mommy...but, deep in his little heart, at some level, I know
he wondered where his mommy was.....while he lay there mutilated in
what was supposed to be a safe and welcoming environment. I made a note
in the chart and then caught a glimpse of myself in a mirror...my chest
and face had broken out in purple splotches. My next thought? I can't
do this...I refuse to do this...this is NOT for me. I took the baby to
his mother..who was complaining about 'some pain' she was
experiencing...I never addressed her pain because I left to go to my
locker..I grabbed my belongings..and hoped that my rejection of this
'medical system' could serve as some type of redemption for the
violation of that newborn that I cradled in my arms that day. The next
day, I withdrew from nursing school...and never looked back.

[w***@aol.com]

Post by Nicole Maendel
I want to share with all of you an event that drew me into
intactivism...
Back in 1996, I began an OB/GYN hospital clinical as a student nurse.
One day, I was enlisted to attend a 'routine circumcision.' I did not
realize how much that event would shatter the very foundation of a
career choice made in ignorance.

You should check out hospitals in Swaziland or South Africa and watch
people dying horribly by the thousands from HIV infections that could
have been avoided if their societies practiced circumcision. You
would find the experience a lot more shattering than a circumcision, I
can assure you.

[Nicole Maendel]

With all due respect, let's push SAFE SEX and EDUCATION instead. And
what are women to do? Rip out their vaginas? Nobody said societal
change would be easy...but it begins with awareness and education...not
mutilation.
Nicole

Post by w***@aol.com

Post by Nicole Maendel
I want to share with all of you an event that drew me into
intactivism...
Back in 1996, I began an OB/GYN hospital clinical as a student nurse.
One day, I was enlisted to attend a 'routine circumcision.' I did not
realize how much that event would shatter the very foundation of a
career choice made in ignorance.

You should check out hospitals in Swaziland or South Africa and watch
people dying horribly by the thousands from HIV infections that could
have been avoided if their societies practiced circumcision. You
would find the experience a lot more shattering than a circumcision, I
can assure you.

[w***@aol.com]

Post by Nicole Maendel
With all due respect, let's push SAFE SEX and EDUCATION instead.

These often fail. Didnt you know that the catholic church opposes
condoms? That Islam is hostile to them? That 3 billion people live on
less than $2 a day and cant afford condoms even if they were available?
That millions of women are raped every year? That millions more dare
not argue about sex with their menfolk? That education is notoriously
unreliable as a means of changing behavior? That even in highly
educated countries many people routinely take risks? That there are
over 40 million AIDS cases, with the trend rising out of sight?

Sure, lets push safe sex and education -- but lets not assume they are
the final answer, because they are not and never will be, any more
than seat belts and driver education will eliminate traffic accidents
and injuries.

What we do know from over 30 studies is that circumcision dramatically
reduces the chances of HIV transmission. Unless you value foreskins
over human life, you should be willing to include circumcision as
additional element in the fight against AIDS.

Post by Nicole Maendel
And
what are women to do? Rip out their vaginas?

No, they should encourage men to get circumcised, especially their male
offspring. An added benefit to women would be a reduction in cervical
cancer, which is almost always caused by HPV, transmitted
disproportionately by uncircumcised men.

Post by Nicole Maendel
Nobody said societal
change would be easy...but it begins with awareness and education..

Im all for societal change. But a simple, one-time snip offers a
permanent and significant benefit. Its a lot harder to change the
views of the catholic church and the mullahs and imams, to raise
incomes around the world so that people can afford condoms, to
institute effective, ongoing education especially in countries where
most people dont even finish elementary school, to change traditional
attitudes of men toward women, and to obliterate the frequent human
tendency to take risks.

How soon do you think you will be able to achieve those changes?
Thousands of people are infected every day -- how long do you expect
the world to wait? How many deaths that could have been avoided with
circumcision are acceptable to you?

Also, I cannot agree with you that circumcision is mutilation. It is a
beneficial removal of a trivial evolutionary hangover, offering great
improvement in appearance, hygiene, sexual performance, and resistance
to disease.

[ged]

Post by Nicole Maendel
With all due respect, let's push SAFE SEX and EDUCATION instead. And
what are women to do? Rip out their vaginas? Nobody said societal
change would be easy...but it begins with awareness and education...not
mutilation.
Nicole

You are absolutely right! And before you believe all the pro-circ
propaganda, read this:
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/hill-denniston1/

Post by Nicole Maendel

Post by w***@aol.com

Post by Nicole Maendel
I want to share with all of you an event that drew me into
intactivism...
Back in 1996, I began an OB/GYN hospital clinical as a student nurse.
One day, I was enlisted to attend a 'routine circumcision.' I did not
realize how much that event would shatter the very foundation of a
career choice made in ignorance.

You should check out hospitals in Swaziland or South Africa and watch
people dying horribly by the thousands from HIV infections that could
have been avoided if their societies practiced circumcision. You
would find the experience a lot more shattering than a circumcision, I
can assure you.

[Nicole Maendel]

ged:
Thanks! This was very informative. I'll pass it on to my fellow
activists.

Post by ged

Post by Nicole Maendel
With all due respect, let's push SAFE SEX and EDUCATION instead. And
what are women to do? Rip out their vaginas? Nobody said societal
change would be easy...but it begins with awareness and education...not
mutilation.
Nicole

You are absolutely right! And before you believe all the pro-circ
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/hill-denniston1/

Post by Nicole Maendel

Post by w***@aol.com

Post by Nicole Maendel
I want to share with all of you an event that drew me into
intactivism...
Back in 1996, I began an OB/GYN hospital clinical as a student nurse.
One day, I was enlisted to attend a 'routine circumcision.' I did not
realize how much that event would shatter the very foundation of a
career choice made in ignorance.

You should check out hospitals in Swaziland or South Africa and watch
people dying horribly by the thousands from HIV infections that could
have been avoided if their societies practiced circumcision. You
would find the experience a lot more shattering than a circumcision, I
can assure you.

[w***@aol.com]

Post by Nicole Maendel
Thanks! This was very informative. I'll pass it on to my fellow
activists.

And will you have the integrity and intellectual honesty to pass on my
response, showing that the information was misinformation? Or not?

[Zac]

Post by Nicole Maendel
Thanks! This was very informative.

No surprise you thought a reference to that cirp domain would be
'informative'.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'll pass it on to my fellow activists.

a/k/a skin freaks. You'll be preaching to the converted.

[w***@aol.com]

Post by ged
You are absolutely right! And before you believe all the pro-circ
propaganda

Propoganda? 30 + scientific studies by the leading researchers in the
field are propaganda? Sweet Jesus, we have another conspiracy
theorist here!

Post by ged
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/hill-denniston1/

LOL! Talk about propaganda! This "doctors against cirumcision" is
a nutcase group consisting of two known doctors and a few non doctors.
Their " "vice president for bioethics and medical science", cited
here, is a retired airline pilot. The errors on their website are
legion and well known.

The thesis of their discredited misinformation here is that the
majority of cases of HIV in Africa are caused by doctors and nurses
using contaminated instruments. But even if this were true:

1. It would offer NO explanation for the dismal fact that HIV in Africa
is overwhelmingly a disease of uncircumcised peoples.

2. It would be IRRELEVANT to whether foreskins are a factor in the
millions of remaining cases that are sexually transmitted.

But its not true anyway. The material cited was based on a poorly
received secondary analysis which nobody familiar with the field took
seriously. The conclusion was soon dispatched by a more serious study
published in the April 17th 2003 issue of Nature (422:679) summarized
here:

Scientists Say Sex the Main Source of HIV in Africa
Wed April 16, 2003


"NEW YORK - Despite recent theories that the AIDS epidemic in
some African countries arose from unsafe medical injections and blood
transfusions, scientists said Wednesday that the pattern of the disease
matches
more closely with one primarily spread by unprotected sex.

"The UK investigators compared the changing rate of HIV in sub-Saharan
African
countries -- home to the most people infected with HIV -- to that of
hepatitis
C, a liver-attacking virus spread mainly through contact with infected
blood.

"Globally, more people are infected with hepatitis C than HIV. However,
unlike
other nations, sub-Saharan African countries have a higher rate of HIV
than
hepatitis C.

"A needle tainted with hepatitis C-infected blood is six times more
likely to
infect a person than a needle tainted with HIV is, the authors of the
new study
note in the April 17th issue of Nature.

"And given that HIV is more common than hepatitis C in sub-Saharan
Africa, the
high prevalence of HIV must be due to factors besides the use of
unsterile
needles or contaminated blood products, they say.

"Although many Africans with HIV have become infected as a result of
unsafe
medical practices, that route of transmission "is not the dominant
contributor
to the African HIV epidemic," the researchers report.

"I think it's because of unsafe sex," study author Dr. Edward C. Holmes
of the
University of Oxford told Reuters Health.

"This is clearly the key factor, although there are clearly a variety
of
socioeconomic factors which impact on this," he added.

"But a comparison between rates of HIV and hepatitis C in sub-Saharan
Africa
paints quite a different picture, according to Holmes and his team.

"The majority of Africans with HIV live in South Africa, the authors
note. In
the case of that country, the incidence of HIV among adults has
increased from
less than one percent in 1990 to almost 25 percent in 2000.

"In contrast, the rate of hepatitis C has remained steady and
relatively low
over the same time period, the authors point out.

"These divergent trends, they conclude, suggest "that current levels of
HIV
prevalence are not primarily the result of using unsterile medical
equipment or
contaminated blood products."


Notice that "doctors against circumcision" cite the discredited
secondary analysis on their website, but not the accepted scientific
research which showed the analysis to be wrong. Which is typical
deceit for that group of charlatan propagandists.

[Jake Waskett]

Post by ged

Post by Nicole Maendel
With all due respect, let's push SAFE SEX and EDUCATION instead. And
what are women to do? Rip out their vaginas? Nobody said societal
change would be easy...but it begins with awareness and education...not
mutilation.
Nicole

You are absolutely right! And before you believe all the pro-circ
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/hill-denniston1/

Oh please!

Post by ged

Post by Nicole Maendel

Post by w***@aol.com

Post by Nicole Maendel
I want to share with all of you an event that drew me into
intactivism...
Back in 1996, I began an OB/GYN hospital clinical as a student nurse.
One day, I was enlisted to attend a 'routine circumcision.' I did not
realize how much that event would shatter the very foundation of a
career choice made in ignorance.

You should check out hospitals in Swaziland or South Africa and watch
people dying horribly by the thousands from HIV infections that could
have been avoided if their societies practiced circumcision. You
would find the experience a lot more shattering than a circumcision, I
can assure you.

[Zac]

there are many things worse than a circumcision. Sometimes I think one
needs life experience to realize that. At 18, I passed out from having
blood drawn. Now I find it a big joke and it doesn't bother me.

[HR]

The 44-year-old then doubled down on the stance in a follow-up interview with The Daily Beast, saying he would make it public policy to “inform parents that it is entirely up to them whether their infant gets circumcised, and that there are costs and benefits either way.”

“It’s sort of pushed on parents in many situations,” he told the site, describing circumcision as a “cultural onus” imposed on parents.

Yang also said he is “highly aligned” with intactivists,

[Zac]

Post by Nicole Maendel
In walked the doctor...loud..obnoxious..joking with his assistant...as
if he was about to perform a 10 minute oil change..

that's about how involved a circumcision is

Post by Nicole Maendel
as ... dangled the
foreskin in midair.."anybody care to go fishing?"

Hey, that's quite funny!!

Post by Nicole Maendel
... I can't do this...I refuse to do this...this is NOT for me.
I grabbed my belongings..and hoped that my rejection of this
'medical system' could serve as some type of redemption for the
violation of that newborn that I cradled in my arms that day. The next
day, I withdrew from nursing school...and never looked back.

Ten years later, do you think the medical system has missed you?
Probably not. The world continues and circumcision continues - and even
increased - despite your disapproval.

You did the right thing by leaving the field. But trust that most
nurses are not bothered by what you experienced, in fact I know several
who are quite enamored with helping little boys to get their
circumcisions or to assist the prodceure. When my own son had his
(later than at birth), one of the nurses joked that "he's going to be a
lot more popular with the girls when he grows up now".

[Nicole Maendel]

Zac_
Knowing that your son endured this torture I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him. But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny." It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
In walked the doctor...loud..obnoxious..joking with his assistant...as
if he was about to perform a 10 minute oil change..

that's about how involved a circumcision is

Post by Nicole Maendel
as ... dangled the
foreskin in midair.."anybody care to go fishing?"

Hey, that's quite funny!!

Post by Nicole Maendel
... I can't do this...I refuse to do this...this is NOT for me.
I grabbed my belongings..and hoped that my rejection of this
'medical system' could serve as some type of redemption for the
violation of that newborn that I cradled in my arms that day. The next
day, I withdrew from nursing school...and never looked back.

Ten years later, do you think the medical system has missed you?
Probably not. The world continues and circumcision continues - and even
increased - despite your disapproval.
You did the right thing by leaving the field. But trust that most
nurses are not bothered by what you experienced, in fact I know several
who are quite enamored with helping little boys to get their
circumcisions or to assist the prodceure. When my own son had his
(later than at birth), one of the nurses joked that "he's going to be a
lot more popular with the girls when he grows up now".

[Jake Waskett]

Post by Nicole Maendel
Zac_
Knowing that your son endured this torture I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him. But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..

Come now! No need to be melodramatic.

Post by Nicole Maendel
is not really what I would call "funny." It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

The opposite is also true. I was once (mildly) opposed to infant
circumcision. I've learned a lot since, and now help to make others aware
of the deceptive activities of anti-circumcision activists.

Post by Nicole Maendel

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
In walked the doctor...loud..obnoxious..joking with his assistant...as
if he was about to perform a 10 minute oil change..

that's about how involved a circumcision is

Post by Nicole Maendel
as ... dangled the
foreskin in midair.."anybody care to go fishing?"

Hey, that's quite funny!!

Post by Nicole Maendel
... I can't do this...I refuse to do this...this is NOT for me.
I grabbed my belongings..and hoped that my rejection of this
'medical system' could serve as some type of redemption for the
violation of that newborn that I cradled in my arms that day. The next
day, I withdrew from nursing school...and never looked back.

Ten years later, do you think the medical system has missed you?
Probably not. The world continues and circumcision continues - and even
increased - despite your disapproval.
You did the right thing by leaving the field. But trust that most
nurses are not bothered by what you experienced, in fact I know several
who are quite enamored with helping little boys to get their
circumcisions or to assist the prodceure. When my own son had his
(later than at birth), one of the nurses joked that "he's going to be a
lot more popular with the girls when he grows up now".

[Nicole Maendel]

Jake~
Please further explain the "deceptive activities" to which you are
referring.
Thanks,
Nicole

Post by Jake Waskett

Post by Nicole Maendel
Zac_
Knowing that your son endured this torture I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him. But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..

Come now! No need to be melodramatic.

Post by Nicole Maendel
is not really what I would call "funny." It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

The opposite is also true. I was once (mildly) opposed to infant
circumcision. I've learned a lot since, and now help to make others aware
of the deceptive activities of anti-circumcision activists.

Post by Nicole Maendel

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
In walked the doctor...loud..obnoxious..joking with his assistant...as
if he was about to perform a 10 minute oil change..

that's about how involved a circumcision is

Post by Nicole Maendel
as ... dangled the
foreskin in midair.."anybody care to go fishing?"

Hey, that's quite funny!!

Post by Nicole Maendel
... I can't do this...I refuse to do this...this is NOT for me.
I grabbed my belongings..and hoped that my rejection of this
'medical system' could serve as some type of redemption for the
violation of that newborn that I cradled in my arms that day. The next
day, I withdrew from nursing school...and never looked back.

Ten years later, do you think the medical system has missed you?
Probably not. The world continues and circumcision continues - and even
increased - despite your disapproval.
You did the right thing by leaving the field. But trust that most
nurses are not bothered by what you experienced, in fact I know several
who are quite enamored with helping little boys to get their
circumcisions or to assist the prodceure. When my own son had his
(later than at birth), one of the nurses joked that "he's going to be a
lot more popular with the girls when he grows up now".

[Jake Waskett]

Post by Nicole Maendel
Jake~
Please further explain the "deceptive activities" to which you are
referring.
Thanks,
Nicole

Sure.

Some examples spring to mind:

Paul Fleiss claiming that circumcision is not protective against penile
cancer, citing a study that found that it is.

Fleiss claiming that the foreskin protects against all manner of STDs,
while his citations state the reverse, managing to lie 3/4 times in a
single sentence.

Fleiss, Hodges, and Van Howe claiming that apocrine glands in the
preputial mucosa produce HIV-fighting lysozyme, ignoring the fact that one
of their own references points out that no such glands are present.

Van Howe writing numerous "studies", each of which suspiciously
contradicts the entire body of literature on the relevant subject, and
many of which are shown to have numerous methodological flaws.

Numerous activists claiming that keratinisation of the glans occurs
following circumcision, in spite of the fact that there is no evidence
supporting this myth, and that there are several studies showing the
reverse.

Numerous activists making bizarre excuses in an attempt to deny the
protective effect against HIV.

Numerous activists making the bizarre claim that the protective effect
against UTI is due to one "flawed" study, when in fact there have been
about a dozen.

Various activists conducting polls of anti-circ activists, etc, and trying
to misrepresent these as serious, representative data.

I could go on.

Jake

[Zac]

Post by Nicole Maendel
Knowing that your son endured this torture

you're a moron. why are you assuming there was torture or that he
endured such an event? He had general anesthesia and he remembers
nothing.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him.

we so appreciate your consideration. LOL

Post by Nicole Maendel
But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny."

It doesn't amount to rape. you have a strange imagination. were you
abused as a child? -- what's making you draw such associations?

The doctor you described holding the foreskin up and asking if anyone
wants to go fishing IS quite funny. Come on, get a little humor in your
life.

Post by Nicole Maendel
It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...

They were very nice in all respects. You make a lot of assumptions.

Post by Nicole Maendel
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...

in my case, I do. So I'm not interested in your theory.

Post by Nicole Maendel
if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

been there, done that. I support routine circumcision for all boys.

[Nicole Maendel]

Peace Zac-
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...and I honestly do NOT find
the 'fishing' piece 'funny...' rather, I find it deeply
disturbing..even 10 or so years later...you would have had to have been
there..you would have had to seen the look of terror in that baby's
eyes...you would have had to have felt a newborn body immediately after
that procedure shaking...I think the ultimate question is one of
respect for humanity..what do you think that newborn would have done
and/or said had he been able to immediately sprout to 4 feet and obtain
a vocabulary? My guess is he would've high-tailed it out of there!
Think about it...I'm glad that your son was at least at some level
unaware...
Take care,
Nicole

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
Knowing that your son endured this torture

you're a moron. why are you assuming there was torture or that he
endured such an event? He had general anesthesia and he remembers
nothing.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him.

we so appreciate your consideration. LOL

Post by Nicole Maendel
But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny."

It doesn't amount to rape. you have a strange imagination. were you
abused as a child? -- what's making you draw such associations?
The doctor you described holding the foreskin up and asking if anyone
wants to go fishing IS quite funny. Come on, get a little humor in your
life.

Post by Nicole Maendel
It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...

They were very nice in all respects. You make a lot of assumptions.

Post by Nicole Maendel
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...

in my case, I do. So I'm not interested in your theory.

Post by Nicole Maendel
if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

been there, done that. I support routine circumcision for all boys.

[ponysteel]

Nicole, I have read your anti-circ propaganda messages patiently and
with increasing incredulity. Now I can contain myself no longer - you
simply have no concept of reality do you? The brief moment of
discomfort which occurs during a circumcision is as nothing compared
with the lifelong health, hygiene, comfort and most of all, sexual
benefits which circumcision bestows upon the recipient and his future
female partners. You obviously are an emotional and somewhat queasy
girl and you certainly were unsuited to life as any sort of medical
professional. Also, you have the shrillness and lack of objectivity of
a typical anti-circ crusader. I think that you should stay on the
overtly anti-circ boards, where your message might be more appreciated!

Ponysteel

Post by Nicole Maendel
Peace Zac-
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...and I honestly do NOT find
the 'fishing' piece 'funny...' rather, I find it deeply
disturbing..even 10 or so years later...you would have had to have been
there..you would have had to seen the look of terror in that baby's
eyes...you would have had to have felt a newborn body immediately after
that procedure shaking...I think the ultimate question is one of
respect for humanity..what do you think that newborn would have done
and/or said had he been able to immediately sprout to 4 feet and obtain
a vocabulary? My guess is he would've high-tailed it out of there!
Think about it...I'm glad that your son was at least at some level
unaware...
Take care,
Nicole

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
Knowing that your son endured this torture

you're a moron. why are you assuming there was torture or that he
endured such an event? He had general anesthesia and he remembers
nothing.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him.

we so appreciate your consideration. LOL

Post by Nicole Maendel
But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny."

It doesn't amount to rape. you have a strange imagination. were you
abused as a child? -- what's making you draw such associations?
The doctor you described holding the foreskin up and asking if anyone
wants to go fishing IS quite funny. Come on, get a little humor in your
life.

Post by Nicole Maendel
It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...

They were very nice in all respects. You make a lot of assumptions.

Post by Nicole Maendel
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...

in my case, I do. So I'm not interested in your theory.

Post by Nicole Maendel
if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

been there, done that. I support routine circumcision for all boys.

[Wis4]

Pony,
Thank you..I do tend to be emotional in this particular situation..as
would anyone who would witness an assault (no permission from the
person) against another...and no, I was definitely not cut out to be a
nurse..I moved on to something brainier ;) Now, what has been posted
was my personal SUBJECTIVE story, how it influenced and affected
ME..and believe it or not, the subjectivity of personal experience IS
vital for giving people the entire picture accompanied by factual
information that abounds proving many, if not ALL of your archaic
assumptions, to be incorrect. FYI:::

1860 "In cases of masturbation we must, I believe, break the habit by
inducing such a condition of the parts as will cause too much local
suffering to allow of the practice to be continued. For this purpose,
if the prepuce is long, we may circumcise the male patient with present
and probably with future advantages; the operation, too, should not be
performed under chloroform, so that the pain experienced may be
associated with the habit we wish to eradicate."

On An Injurious Habit Occasionally Met with in Infancy and Early
Childhood, Athol A. W. Johnson. The Lancet, vol. 1 (7 April 1860): pp.
344-345.

Male Circumcision and Psychosexual Effects Investigated

Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its
medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or
anesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that
genital cutting has physical, sexual, and psychological consequences,
too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of
negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some
circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language
of violation, torture, mutilation, and sexual assault. In view of the
acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal
liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and
scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in
the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on
unconsenting minors.
Boyle, G., Goldman, R., Svoboda, J.S., and Fernandez, E., "Male
Circumcision: Pain, Trauma, and Psychosexual Sequelae," Journal of
Health Psychology 7 (2002): 329-343.


Male Circumcision Affects Female Sexual Enjoyment
A survey of women who have had sexual experience with circumcised and
anatomically complete partners showed that the anatomically complete
penis was preferred over the circumcised penis. Without the foreskin to
provide a movable sleeve of skin, intercourse with a circumcised penis
resulted in female discomfort from increased friction, abrasion, and
loss of natural secretions. Respondents overwhelmingly concurred that
the mechanics of coitus were different for the two groups of men.
Unaltered men tended to thrust more gently with shorter strokes.
O'Hara, K. and O'Hara, J., "The Effect of Male Circumcision on
the Sexual Enjoyment of the Female Partner," BJU 83 (1999): suppl. 1:
79-84

Survey Finds Circumcision Contributes to Vaginal Dryness

The impact of male circumcision on vaginal dryness during coitus was
investigated. We conducted a survey of 35 female sexual partners aged
18 to 69 years who had experienced sexual intercourse with both
circumcised and genitally intact men. Women reported they were
significantly more likely to have experienced vaginal dryness during
intercourse with circumcised than with genitally intact men.
Bensley, G. and Boyle, G., "Effects of Male Circumcision on Female
Arousal and Orgasm," N Z Med J 116 (2003): 595-596.

Circumcised Penis Requires More Care in Young Boys
The circumcised penis requires more care than the intact penis during
the first three years of life, according to a report in the British
Journal of Urology. The clinical findings of an American pediatrician
showed that circumcised boys were significantly more likely to have
skin adhesions, trapped debris, irritated urinary opening, and
inflammation of the glans (head of the penis) than were boys with a
foreskin. Furthermore, because there are large variations of appearance
in circumcised boys, circumcision for cosmetic reasons should be
discouraged.
Van Howe, R., "Variability in Penile Appearance and Penile Findings:
A Prospective Study," BJU 80 (1997): 776-782.
A true analysis of the 'whole picture' would require folks to read
beyond their comfort zones (and I'm not necessarily referring to the
above)..some of it bordering concepts that can be uncomfortable or
unfamiliar for their rigid mindsets.
Nicole

Post by ponysteel
Nicole, I have read your anti-circ propaganda messages patiently and
with increasing incredulity. Now I can contain myself no longer - you
simply have no concept of reality do you? The brief moment of
discomfort which occurs during a circumcision is as nothing compared
with the lifelong health, hygiene, comfort and most of all, sexual
benefits which circumcision bestows upon the recipient and his future
female partners. You obviously are an emotional and somewhat queasy
girl and you certainly were unsuited to life as any sort of medical
professional. Also, you have the shrillness and lack of objectivity of
a typical anti-circ crusader. I think that you should stay on the
overtly anti-circ boards, where your message might be more appreciated!
Ponysteel

Post by Nicole Maendel
Peace Zac-
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...and I honestly do NOT find
the 'fishing' piece 'funny...' rather, I find it deeply
disturbing..even 10 or so years later...you would have had to have been
there..you would have had to seen the look of terror in that baby's
eyes...you would have had to have felt a newborn body immediately after
that procedure shaking...I think the ultimate question is one of
respect for humanity..what do you think that newborn would have done
and/or said had he been able to immediately sprout to 4 feet and obtain
a vocabulary? My guess is he would've high-tailed it out of there!
Think about it...I'm glad that your son was at least at some level
unaware...
Take care,
Nicole

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
Knowing that your son endured this torture

you're a moron. why are you assuming there was torture or that he
endured such an event? He had general anesthesia and he remembers
nothing.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him.

we so appreciate your consideration. LOL

Post by Nicole Maendel
But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny."

It doesn't amount to rape. you have a strange imagination. were you
abused as a child? -- what's making you draw such associations?
The doctor you described holding the foreskin up and asking if anyone
wants to go fishing IS quite funny. Come on, get a little humor in your
life.

Post by Nicole Maendel
It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...

They were very nice in all respects. You make a lot of assumptions.

Post by Nicole Maendel
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...

in my case, I do. So I'm not interested in your theory.

Post by Nicole Maendel
if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

been there, done that. I support routine circumcision for all boys.

[Nicole Maendel]

Pony,
Thank you..I do tend to be emotional in this particular situation..as
would anyone who would witness an assault (no permission from the
person) against another...and no, I was definitely not cut out to be a
nurse..I moved on to something brainier ;) Now, what has been posted
was my personal SUBJECTIVE story, how it influenced and affected
ME..and believe it or not, the subjectivity of personal experience IS
vital for giving people the entire picture accompanied by factual
information that abounds proving many, if not ALL of your archaic
assumptions, to be incorrect. FYI:::

1860 "In cases of masturbation we must, I believe, break the habit by
inducing such a condition of the parts as will cause too much local
suffering to allow of the practice to be continued. For this purpose,
if the prepuce is long, we may circumcise the male patient with present

and probably with future advantages; the operation, too, should not be
performed under chloroform, so that the pain experienced may be
associated with the habit we wish to eradicate."


On An Injurious Habit Occasionally Met with in Infancy and Early
Childhood, Athol A. W. Johnson. The Lancet, vol. 1 (7 April 1860): pp.
344-345.


Male Circumcision and Psychosexual Effects Investigated


Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its
medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or
anesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that
genital cutting has physical, sexual, and psychological consequences,
too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of
negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some
circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language
of violation, torture, mutilation, and sexual assault. In view of the
acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal
liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and

scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in
the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on
unconsenting minors.
Boyle, G., Goldman, R., Svoboda, J.S., and Fernandez, E., "Male
Circumcision: Pain, Trauma, and Psychosexual Sequelae," Journal of
Health Psychology 7 (2002): 329-343.


Male Circumcision Affects Female Sexual Enjoyment
A survey of women who have had sexual experience with circumcised and
anatomically complete partners showed that the anatomically complete
penis was preferred over the circumcised penis. Without the foreskin to

provide a movable sleeve of skin, intercourse with a circumcised penis
resulted in female discomfort from increased friction, abrasion, and
loss of natural secretions. Respondents overwhelmingly concurred that
the mechanics of coitus were different for the two groups of men.
Unaltered men tended to thrust more gently with shorter strokes.
O'Hara, K. and O'Hara, J., "The Effect of Male Circumcision on
the Sexual Enjoyment of the Female Partner," BJU 83 (1999): suppl. 1:
79-84


Survey Finds Circumcision Contributes to Vaginal Dryness


The impact of male circumcision on vaginal dryness during coitus was
investigated. We conducted a survey of 35 female sexual partners aged
18 to 69 years who had experienced sexual intercourse with both
circumcised and genitally intact men. Women reported they were
significantly more likely to have experienced vaginal dryness during
intercourse with circumcised than with genitally intact men.
Bensley, G. and Boyle, G., "Effects of Male Circumcision on Female
Arousal and Orgasm," N Z Med J 116 (2003): 595-596.


Circumcised Penis Requires More Care in Young Boys
The circumcised penis requires more care than the intact penis during
the first three years of life, according to a report in the British
Journal of Urology. The clinical findings of an American pediatrician
showed that circumcised boys were significantly more likely to have
skin adhesions, trapped debris, irritated urinary opening, and
inflammation of the glans (head of the penis) than were boys with a
foreskin. Furthermore, because there are large variations of appearance

in circumcised boys, circumcision for cosmetic reasons should be
discouraged.
Van Howe, R., "Variability in Penile Appearance and Penile Findings:
A Prospective Study," BJU 80 (1997): 776-782.
A true analysis of the 'whole picture' would require folks to read
beyond their comfort zones (and I'm not necessarily referring to the
above)..some of it bordering concepts that can be uncomfortable or
unfamiliar for their rigid mindsets.
Nicole

Post by ponysteel
Nicole, I have read your anti-circ propaganda messages patiently and
with increasing incredulity. Now I can contain myself no longer - you
simply have no concept of reality do you? The brief moment of
discomfort which occurs during a circumcision is as nothing compared
with the lifelong health, hygiene, comfort and most of all, sexual
benefits which circumcision bestows upon the recipient and his future
female partners. You obviously are an emotional and somewhat queasy
girl and you certainly were unsuited to life as any sort of medical
professional. Also, you have the shrillness and lack of objectivity of
a typical anti-circ crusader. I think that you should stay on the
overtly anti-circ boards, where your message might be more appreciated!
Ponysteel

Post by Nicole Maendel
Peace Zac-
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...and I honestly do NOT find
the 'fishing' piece 'funny...' rather, I find it deeply
disturbing..even 10 or so years later...you would have had to have been
there..you would have had to seen the look of terror in that baby's
eyes...you would have had to have felt a newborn body immediately after
that procedure shaking...I think the ultimate question is one of
respect for humanity..what do you think that newborn would have done
and/or said had he been able to immediately sprout to 4 feet and obtain
a vocabulary? My guess is he would've high-tailed it out of there!
Think about it...I'm glad that your son was at least at some level
unaware...
Take care,
Nicole

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
Knowing that your son endured this torture

you're a moron. why are you assuming there was torture or that he
endured such an event? He had general anesthesia and he remembers
nothing.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him.

we so appreciate your consideration. LOL

Post by Nicole Maendel
But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny."

It doesn't amount to rape. you have a strange imagination. were you
abused as a child? -- what's making you draw such associations?
The doctor you described holding the foreskin up and asking if anyone
wants to go fishing IS quite funny. Come on, get a little humor in your
life.

Post by Nicole Maendel
It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...

They were very nice in all respects. You make a lot of assumptions.

Post by Nicole Maendel
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...

in my case, I do. So I'm not interested in your theory.

Post by Nicole Maendel
if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

been there, done that. I support routine circumcision for all boys.

[Jake Waskett]

Post by Wis4
Pony,
Thank you..I do tend to be emotional in this particular situation..as
would anyone who would witness an assault (no permission from the
person) against another...and no, I was definitely not cut out to be a
nurse..I moved on to something brainier ;) Now, what has been posted
was my personal SUBJECTIVE story, how it influenced and affected
ME..and believe it or not, the subjectivity of personal experience IS
vital for giving people the entire picture accompanied by factual
information that abounds proving many, if not ALL of your archaic
1860 "In cases of masturbation we must, I believe, break the habit by
inducing such a condition of the parts as will cause too much local
suffering to allow of the practice to be continued. For this purpose,
if the prepuce is long, we may circumcise the male patient with present
and probably with future advantages; the operation, too, should not be
performed under chloroform, so that the pain experienced may be
associated with the habit we wish to eradicate."
On An Injurious Habit Occasionally Met with in Infancy and Early
Childhood, Athol A. W. Johnson. The Lancet, vol. 1 (7 April 1860): pp.
344-345.

What possible relevance does a 150-year old article have today?

Post by Wis4
Male Circumcision and Psychosexual Effects Investigated
Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its
medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or
anesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that
genital cutting has physical, sexual, and psychological consequences,
too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of
negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some
circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language
of violation, torture, mutilation, and sexual assault. In view of the
acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal
liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and
scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in
the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on
unconsenting minors.
Boyle, G., Goldman, R., Svoboda, J.S., and Fernandez, E., "Male
Circumcision: Pain, Trauma, and Psychosexual Sequelae," Journal of
Health Psychology 7 (2002): 329-343.

Oh, for heaven's sake. This is an anti-circumcision propaganda piece, not
serious scientific information. The content is purely speculative, and the
authors are well-known anti-circ activists.

Post by Wis4
Male Circumcision Affects Female Sexual Enjoyment
A survey of women who have had sexual experience with circumcised and
anatomically complete partners showed that the anatomically complete
penis was preferred over the circumcised penis. Without the foreskin to
provide a movable sleeve of skin, intercourse with a circumcised penis
resulted in female discomfort from increased friction, abrasion, and
loss of natural secretions. Respondents overwhelmingly concurred that
the mechanics of coitus were different for the two groups of men.
Unaltered men tended to thrust more gently with shorter strokes.
O'Hara, K. and O'Hara, J., "The Effect of Male Circumcision on
79-84

A survey of female anti-circumcision activists. Valueless due to selection
bias.

Post by Wis4
Survey Finds Circumcision Contributes to Vaginal Dryness
The impact of male circumcision on vaginal dryness during coitus was
investigated. We conducted a survey of 35 female sexual partners aged
18 to 69 years who had experienced sexual intercourse with both
circumcised and genitally intact men. Women reported they were
significantly more likely to have experienced vaginal dryness during
intercourse with circumcised than with genitally intact men.
Bensley, G. and Boyle, G., "Effects of Male Circumcision on Female
Arousal and Orgasm," N Z Med J 116 (2003): 595-596.

Method of participant recruitment is unspecified. The authors are both
NOCIRC activists. Treat with caution.

Post by Wis4
Circumcised Penis Requires More Care in Young Boys
The circumcised penis requires more care than the intact penis during
the first three years of life, according to a report in the British
Journal of Urology. The clinical findings of an American pediatrician
showed that circumcised boys were significantly more likely to have
skin adhesions, trapped debris, irritated urinary opening, and
inflammation of the glans (head of the penis) than were boys with a
foreskin. Furthermore, because there are large variations of appearance
in circumcised boys, circumcision for cosmetic reasons should be
discouraged.
A Prospective Study," BJU 80 (1997): 776-782.

Yet another Van Howe (another anti-circ activist) article that
mysteriously manages to find the exact opposite of every other work in the
literature. See
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/eletters/81/4/537#1382

Post by Wis4
A true analysis of the 'whole picture' would require folks to read
beyond their comfort zones (and I'm not necessarily referring to the
above)..some of it bordering concepts that can be uncomfortable or
unfamiliar for their rigid mindsets.

Perhaps so. However, some people seem to be lacking in any critical
thinking abilities, and blindly accept any trash as truthful.

Post by Wis4
Nicole

Post by ponysteel
Nicole, I have read your anti-circ propaganda messages patiently and
with increasing incredulity. Now I can contain myself no longer - you
simply have no concept of reality do you? The brief moment of
discomfort which occurs during a circumcision is as nothing compared
with the lifelong health, hygiene, comfort and most of all, sexual
benefits which circumcision bestows upon the recipient and his future
female partners. You obviously are an emotional and somewhat queasy
girl and you certainly were unsuited to life as any sort of medical
professional. Also, you have the shrillness and lack of objectivity of
a typical anti-circ crusader. I think that you should stay on the
overtly anti-circ boards, where your message might be more appreciated!
Ponysteel

Post by Nicole Maendel
Peace Zac-
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...and I honestly do NOT find
the 'fishing' piece 'funny...' rather, I find it deeply
disturbing..even 10 or so years later...you would have had to have been
there..you would have had to seen the look of terror in that baby's
eyes...you would have had to have felt a newborn body immediately after
that procedure shaking...I think the ultimate question is one of
respect for humanity..what do you think that newborn would have done
and/or said had he been able to immediately sprout to 4 feet and obtain
a vocabulary? My guess is he would've high-tailed it out of there!
Think about it...I'm glad that your son was at least at some level
unaware...
Take care,
Nicole

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
Knowing that your son endured this torture

you're a moron. why are you assuming there was torture or that he
endured such an event? He had general anesthesia and he remembers
nothing.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him.

we so appreciate your consideration. LOL

Post by Nicole Maendel
But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny."

It doesn't amount to rape. you have a strange imagination. were you
abused as a child? -- what's making you draw such associations?
The doctor you described holding the foreskin up and asking if anyone
wants to go fishing IS quite funny. Come on, get a little humor in your
life.

Post by Nicole Maendel
It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...

They were very nice in all respects. You make a lot of assumptions.

Post by Nicole Maendel
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...

in my case, I do. So I'm not interested in your theory.

Post by Nicole Maendel
if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

been there, done that. I support routine circumcision for all boys.

[Nicole Maendel]

Jake,
Couldn't agree with you more!
Nicole

Post by Jake Waskett

Post by Wis4
Pony,
Thank you..I do tend to be emotional in this particular situation..as
would anyone who would witness an assault (no permission from the
person) against another...and no, I was definitely not cut out to be a
nurse..I moved on to something brainier ;) Now, what has been posted
was my personal SUBJECTIVE story, how it influenced and affected
ME..and believe it or not, the subjectivity of personal experience IS
vital for giving people the entire picture accompanied by factual
information that abounds proving many, if not ALL of your archaic
1860 "In cases of masturbation we must, I believe, break the habit by
inducing such a condition of the parts as will cause too much local
suffering to allow of the practice to be continued. For this purpose,
if the prepuce is long, we may circumcise the male patient with present
and probably with future advantages; the operation, too, should not be
performed under chloroform, so that the pain experienced may be
associated with the habit we wish to eradicate."
On An Injurious Habit Occasionally Met with in Infancy and Early
Childhood, Athol A. W. Johnson. The Lancet, vol. 1 (7 April 1860): pp.
344-345.

What possible relevance does a 150-year old article have today?

Post by Wis4
Male Circumcision and Psychosexual Effects Investigated
Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its
medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or
anesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that
genital cutting has physical, sexual, and psychological consequences,
too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of
negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some
circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language
of violation, torture, mutilation, and sexual assault. In view of the
acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal
liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and
scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in
the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on
unconsenting minors.
Boyle, G., Goldman, R., Svoboda, J.S., and Fernandez, E., "Male
Circumcision: Pain, Trauma, and Psychosexual Sequelae," Journal of
Health Psychology 7 (2002): 329-343.

Oh, for heaven's sake. This is an anti-circumcision propaganda piece, not
serious scientific information. The content is purely speculative, and the
authors are well-known anti-circ activists.

Post by Wis4
Male Circumcision Affects Female Sexual Enjoyment
A survey of women who have had sexual experience with circumcised and
anatomically complete partners showed that the anatomically complete
penis was preferred over the circumcised penis. Without the foreskin to
provide a movable sleeve of skin, intercourse with a circumcised penis
resulted in female discomfort from increased friction, abrasion, and
loss of natural secretions. Respondents overwhelmingly concurred that
the mechanics of coitus were different for the two groups of men.
Unaltered men tended to thrust more gently with shorter strokes.
O'Hara, K. and O'Hara, J., "The Effect of Male Circumcision on
79-84

A survey of female anti-circumcision activists. Valueless due to selection
bias.

Post by Wis4
Survey Finds Circumcision Contributes to Vaginal Dryness
The impact of male circumcision on vaginal dryness during coitus was
investigated. We conducted a survey of 35 female sexual partners aged
18 to 69 years who had experienced sexual intercourse with both
circumcised and genitally intact men. Women reported they were
significantly more likely to have experienced vaginal dryness during
intercourse with circumcised than with genitally intact men.
Bensley, G. and Boyle, G., "Effects of Male Circumcision on Female
Arousal and Orgasm," N Z Med J 116 (2003): 595-596.

Method of participant recruitment is unspecified. The authors are both
NOCIRC activists. Treat with caution.

Post by Wis4
Circumcised Penis Requires More Care in Young Boys
The circumcised penis requires more care than the intact penis during
the first three years of life, according to a report in the British
Journal of Urology. The clinical findings of an American pediatrician
showed that circumcised boys were significantly more likely to have
skin adhesions, trapped debris, irritated urinary opening, and
inflammation of the glans (head of the penis) than were boys with a
foreskin. Furthermore, because there are large variations of appearance
in circumcised boys, circumcision for cosmetic reasons should be
discouraged.
A Prospective Study," BJU 80 (1997): 776-782.

Yet another Van Howe (another anti-circ activist) article that
mysteriously manages to find the exact opposite of every other work in the
literature. See
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/eletters/81/4/537#1382

Post by Wis4
A true analysis of the 'whole picture' would require folks to read
beyond their comfort zones (and I'm not necessarily referring to the
above)..some of it bordering concepts that can be uncomfortable or
unfamiliar for their rigid mindsets.

Perhaps so. However, some people seem to be lacking in any critical
thinking abilities, and blindly accept any trash as truthful.

Post by Wis4
Nicole

Post by ponysteel
Nicole, I have read your anti-circ propaganda messages patiently and
with increasing incredulity. Now I can contain myself no longer - you
simply have no concept of reality do you? The brief moment of
discomfort which occurs during a circumcision is as nothing compared
with the lifelong health, hygiene, comfort and most of all, sexual
benefits which circumcision bestows upon the recipient and his future
female partners. You obviously are an emotional and somewhat queasy
girl and you certainly were unsuited to life as any sort of medical
professional. Also, you have the shrillness and lack of objectivity of
a typical anti-circ crusader. I think that you should stay on the
overtly anti-circ boards, where your message might be more appreciated!
Ponysteel

Post by Nicole Maendel
Peace Zac-
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...and I honestly do NOT find
the 'fishing' piece 'funny...' rather, I find it deeply
disturbing..even 10 or so years later...you would have had to have been
there..you would have had to seen the look of terror in that baby's
eyes...you would have had to have felt a newborn body immediately after
that procedure shaking...I think the ultimate question is one of
respect for humanity..what do you think that newborn would have done
and/or said had he been able to immediately sprout to 4 feet and obtain
a vocabulary? My guess is he would've high-tailed it out of there!
Think about it...I'm glad that your son was at least at some level
unaware...
Take care,
Nicole

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
Knowing that your son endured this torture

you're a moron. why are you assuming there was torture or that he
endured such an event? He had general anesthesia and he remembers
nothing.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him.

we so appreciate your consideration. LOL

Post by Nicole Maendel
But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny."

It doesn't amount to rape. you have a strange imagination. were you
abused as a child? -- what's making you draw such associations?
The doctor you described holding the foreskin up and asking if anyone
wants to go fishing IS quite funny. Come on, get a little humor in your
life.

Post by Nicole Maendel
It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...

They were very nice in all respects. You make a lot of assumptions.

Post by Nicole Maendel
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...

in my case, I do. So I'm not interested in your theory.

Post by Nicole Maendel
if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

been there, done that. I support routine circumcision for all boys.

[tomo]

A couple points on this:
1.1969 is a long time ago. most boys get effective pain relief during
their circ.

2. the HIV protection protects both men and women. Men who stay HIV-
cause their circumcised wont pass it on to their women. Also, cut guys
maybe less likely to pass it on even when HIV+ tho this needs more
study.

3. Foreskins make great bait!

Post by Nicole Maendel
Jake,
Couldn't agree with you more!
Nicole

Post by Jake Waskett

Post by Wis4
Pony,
Thank you..I do tend to be emotional in this particular situation..as
would anyone who would witness an assault (no permission from the
person) against another...and no, I was definitely not cut out to be a
nurse..I moved on to something brainier ;) Now, what has been posted
was my personal SUBJECTIVE story, how it influenced and affected
ME..and believe it or not, the subjectivity of personal experience IS
vital for giving people the entire picture accompanied by factual
information that abounds proving many, if not ALL of your archaic
1860 "In cases of masturbation we must, I believe, break the habit by
inducing such a condition of the parts as will cause too much local
suffering to allow of the practice to be continued. For this purpose,
if the prepuce is long, we may circumcise the male patient with present
and probably with future advantages; the operation, too, should not be
performed under chloroform, so that the pain experienced may be
associated with the habit we wish to eradicate."
On An Injurious Habit Occasionally Met with in Infancy and Early
Childhood, Athol A. W. Johnson. The Lancet, vol. 1 (7 April 1860): pp.
344-345.

What possible relevance does a 150-year old article have today?

Post by Wis4
Male Circumcision and Psychosexual Effects Investigated
Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its
medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or
anesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that
genital cutting has physical, sexual, and psychological consequences,
too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of
negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some
circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language
of violation, torture, mutilation, and sexual assault. In view of the
acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal
liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and
scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in
the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on
unconsenting minors.
Boyle, G., Goldman, R., Svoboda, J.S., and Fernandez, E., "Male
Circumcision: Pain, Trauma, and Psychosexual Sequelae," Journal of
Health Psychology 7 (2002): 329-343.

Oh, for heaven's sake. This is an anti-circumcision propaganda piece, not
serious scientific information. The content is purely speculative, and the
authors are well-known anti-circ activists.

Post by Wis4
Male Circumcision Affects Female Sexual Enjoyment
A survey of women who have had sexual experience with circumcised and
anatomically complete partners showed that the anatomically complete
penis was preferred over the circumcised penis. Without the foreskin to
provide a movable sleeve of skin, intercourse with a circumcised penis
resulted in female discomfort from increased friction, abrasion, and
loss of natural secretions. Respondents overwhelmingly concurred that
the mechanics of coitus were different for the two groups of men.
Unaltered men tended to thrust more gently with shorter strokes.
O'Hara, K. and O'Hara, J., "The Effect of Male Circumcision on
79-84

A survey of female anti-circumcision activists. Valueless due to selection
bias.

Post by Wis4
Survey Finds Circumcision Contributes to Vaginal Dryness
The impact of male circumcision on vaginal dryness during coitus was
investigated. We conducted a survey of 35 female sexual partners aged
18 to 69 years who had experienced sexual intercourse with both
circumcised and genitally intact men. Women reported they were
significantly more likely to have experienced vaginal dryness during
intercourse with circumcised than with genitally intact men.
Bensley, G. and Boyle, G., "Effects of Male Circumcision on Female
Arousal and Orgasm," N Z Med J 116 (2003): 595-596.

Method of participant recruitment is unspecified. The authors are both
NOCIRC activists. Treat with caution.

Post by Wis4
Circumcised Penis Requires More Care in Young Boys
The circumcised penis requires more care than the intact penis during
the first three years of life, according to a report in the British
Journal of Urology. The clinical findings of an American pediatrician
showed that circumcised boys were significantly more likely to have
skin adhesions, trapped debris, irritated urinary opening, and
inflammation of the glans (head of the penis) than were boys with a
foreskin. Furthermore, because there are large variations of appearance
in circumcised boys, circumcision for cosmetic reasons should be
discouraged.
A Prospective Study," BJU 80 (1997): 776-782.

Yet another Van Howe (another anti-circ activist) article that
mysteriously manages to find the exact opposite of every other work in the
literature. See
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/eletters/81/4/537#1382

Post by Wis4
A true analysis of the 'whole picture' would require folks to read
beyond their comfort zones (and I'm not necessarily referring to the
above)..some of it bordering concepts that can be uncomfortable or
unfamiliar for their rigid mindsets.

Perhaps so. However, some people seem to be lacking in any critical
thinking abilities, and blindly accept any trash as truthful.

Post by Wis4
Nicole

Post by ponysteel
Nicole, I have read your anti-circ propaganda messages patiently and
with increasing incredulity. Now I can contain myself no longer - you
simply have no concept of reality do you? The brief moment of
discomfort which occurs during a circumcision is as nothing compared
with the lifelong health, hygiene, comfort and most of all, sexual
benefits which circumcision bestows upon the recipient and his future
female partners. You obviously are an emotional and somewhat queasy
girl and you certainly were unsuited to life as any sort of medical
professional. Also, you have the shrillness and lack of objectivity of
a typical anti-circ crusader. I think that you should stay on the
overtly anti-circ boards, where your message might be more appreciated!
Ponysteel

Post by Nicole Maendel
Peace Zac-
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...and I honestly do NOT find
the 'fishing' piece 'funny...' rather, I find it deeply
disturbing..even 10 or so years later...you would have had to have been
there..you would have had to seen the look of terror in that baby's
eyes...you would have had to have felt a newborn body immediately after
that procedure shaking...I think the ultimate question is one of
respect for humanity..what do you think that newborn would have done
and/or said had he been able to immediately sprout to 4 feet and obtain
a vocabulary? My guess is he would've high-tailed it out of there!
Think about it...I'm glad that your son was at least at some level
unaware...
Take care,
Nicole

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
Knowing that your son endured this torture

you're a moron. why are you assuming there was torture or that he
endured such an event? He had general anesthesia and he remembers
nothing.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him.

we so appreciate your consideration. LOL

Post by Nicole Maendel
But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny."

It doesn't amount to rape. you have a strange imagination. were you
abused as a child? -- what's making you draw such associations?
The doctor you described holding the foreskin up and asking if anyone
wants to go fishing IS quite funny. Come on, get a little humor in your
life.

Post by Nicole Maendel
It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...

They were very nice in all respects. You make a lot of assumptions.

Post by Nicole Maendel
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...

in my case, I do. So I'm not interested in your theory.

Post by Nicole Maendel
if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

been there, done that. I support routine circumcision for all boys.

[Zac]

Post by tomo
...
3. Foreskins make great bait!

Even though they make good bait, there's much better use for them - to
harvest the cells that are used to produce miles and miles of live
"bandages" for burn patients.

Many lives have been saved using the byproduct of the foreskins
collected from routine circumcisions.

How many lives have been saved by a foreskin NOT being circumcised?
Probably not one. Has probably COST a few lives too.

[In His Image]

Post by Jake Waskett
What possible relevance does a 150-year old article have today?

More relevance to 21st Century than a stone-age tribal initiation ritual.

-Image

[ponysteel]

(Yawn!) You HAVE been indoctrinated by the anti-circs haven't you
Nicole! We can all relate stories of medical ignorance in the past;
that does nothing to detract form the many benefits which we now know
are associated with circumcision. As for the O'Haras' nonsense - words
fail me. By the way Nicole, have you actually had sex with both
circumcised and uncircumcised men? It sounds as though you have no
first hand knowledge of the difference and are relying on idiots like
the O'Haras.

Pony

Post by Wis4
Pony,
Thank you..I do tend to be emotional in this particular situation..as
would anyone who would witness an assault (no permission from the
person) against another...and no, I was definitely not cut out to be a
nurse..I moved on to something brainier ;) Now, what has been posted
was my personal SUBJECTIVE story, how it influenced and affected
ME..and believe it or not, the subjectivity of personal experience IS
vital for giving people the entire picture accompanied by factual
information that abounds proving many, if not ALL of your archaic
1860 "In cases of masturbation we must, I believe, break the habit by
inducing such a condition of the parts as will cause too much local
suffering to allow of the practice to be continued. For this purpose,
if the prepuce is long, we may circumcise the male patient with present
and probably with future advantages; the operation, too, should not be
performed under chloroform, so that the pain experienced may be
associated with the habit we wish to eradicate."
On An Injurious Habit Occasionally Met with in Infancy and Early
Childhood, Athol A. W. Johnson. The Lancet, vol. 1 (7 April 1860): pp.
344-345.
Male Circumcision and Psychosexual Effects Investigated
Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its
medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or
anesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that
genital cutting has physical, sexual, and psychological consequences,
too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of
negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some
circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language
of violation, torture, mutilation, and sexual assault. In view of the
acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal
liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and
scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in
the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on
unconsenting minors.
Boyle, G., Goldman, R., Svoboda, J.S., and Fernandez, E., "Male
Circumcision: Pain, Trauma, and Psychosexual Sequelae," Journal of
Health Psychology 7 (2002): 329-343.
Male Circumcision Affects Female Sexual Enjoyment
A survey of women who have had sexual experience with circumcised and
anatomically complete partners showed that the anatomically complete
penis was preferred over the circumcised penis. Without the foreskin to
provide a movable sleeve of skin, intercourse with a circumcised penis
resulted in female discomfort from increased friction, abrasion, and
loss of natural secretions. Respondents overwhelmingly concurred that
the mechanics of coitus were different for the two groups of men.
Unaltered men tended to thrust more gently with shorter strokes.
O'Hara, K. and O'Hara, J., "The Effect of Male Circumcision on
79-84
Survey Finds Circumcision Contributes to Vaginal Dryness
The impact of male circumcision on vaginal dryness during coitus was
investigated. We conducted a survey of 35 female sexual partners aged
18 to 69 years who had experienced sexual intercourse with both
circumcised and genitally intact men. Women reported they were
significantly more likely to have experienced vaginal dryness during
intercourse with circumcised than with genitally intact men.
Bensley, G. and Boyle, G., "Effects of Male Circumcision on Female
Arousal and Orgasm," N Z Med J 116 (2003): 595-596.
Circumcised Penis Requires More Care in Young Boys
The circumcised penis requires more care than the intact penis during
the first three years of life, according to a report in the British
Journal of Urology. The clinical findings of an American pediatrician
showed that circumcised boys were significantly more likely to have
skin adhesions, trapped debris, irritated urinary opening, and
inflammation of the glans (head of the penis) than were boys with a
foreskin. Furthermore, because there are large variations of appearance
in circumcised boys, circumcision for cosmetic reasons should be
discouraged.
A Prospective Study," BJU 80 (1997): 776-782.
A true analysis of the 'whole picture' would require folks to read
beyond their comfort zones (and I'm not necessarily referring to the
above)..some of it bordering concepts that can be uncomfortable or
unfamiliar for their rigid mindsets.
Nicole

Post by ponysteel
Nicole, I have read your anti-circ propaganda messages patiently and
with increasing incredulity. Now I can contain myself no longer - you
simply have no concept of reality do you? The brief moment of
discomfort which occurs during a circumcision is as nothing compared
with the lifelong health, hygiene, comfort and most of all, sexual
benefits which circumcision bestows upon the recipient and his future
female partners. You obviously are an emotional and somewhat queasy
girl and you certainly were unsuited to life as any sort of medical
professional. Also, you have the shrillness and lack of objectivity of
a typical anti-circ crusader. I think that you should stay on the
overtly anti-circ boards, where your message might be more appreciated!
Ponysteel

Post by Nicole Maendel
Peace Zac-
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...and I honestly do NOT find
the 'fishing' piece 'funny...' rather, I find it deeply
disturbing..even 10 or so years later...you would have had to have been
there..you would have had to seen the look of terror in that baby's
eyes...you would have had to have felt a newborn body immediately after
that procedure shaking...I think the ultimate question is one of
respect for humanity..what do you think that newborn would have done
and/or said had he been able to immediately sprout to 4 feet and obtain
a vocabulary? My guess is he would've high-tailed it out of there!
Think about it...I'm glad that your son was at least at some level
unaware...
Take care,
Nicole

Post by Zac

Post by Nicole Maendel
Knowing that your son endured this torture

you're a moron. why are you assuming there was torture or that he
endured such an event? He had general anesthesia and he remembers
nothing.

Post by Nicole Maendel
I'm not going to say much
more out of respect for him.

we so appreciate your consideration. LOL

Post by Nicole Maendel
But to call an event that amounted to an
infant rape..is not really what I would call "funny."

It doesn't amount to rape. you have a strange imagination. were you
abused as a child? -- what's making you draw such associations?
The doctor you described holding the foreskin up and asking if anyone
wants to go fishing IS quite funny. Come on, get a little humor in your
life.

Post by Nicole Maendel
It doesn't
surprise me that you know some nurses who are 'enamored' with raping
and mutilating little newborns...they're a dime a dozen. They tend to
be crass, hardened, heartless wicked bitches that are fit for nothing
more than the horror films they're 'cut out' to star in...

They were very nice in all respects. You make a lot of assumptions.

Post by Nicole Maendel
By the way, just because someone is either circumcised or had their
child circumcised does not mean that they have to forever support the
practice...

in my case, I do. So I'm not interested in your theory.

Post by Nicole Maendel
if they examine the facts, maybe they can move past
themselves and bring others to awareness.

been there, done that. I support routine circumcision for all boys.